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A community needs experts to thrive, these are few and far in between.

Occasionally i see new users who seem to know a lot and are experts or knowledgeable contributors.

Then i see some rude person who is a straight idiot and a troll abuse or harrass him, insult or make fun of his beliefs in afterlife or some fundamental aspect of what is commonly held as dogma.

It doesn't surprise me if people are turned off from participation on that account. I do think it is important to shut out users who only post garbage or close to it.

If flags are raised over a user's posts constantly and you remove a dozen of offensive posts when the user is returning after a 10th(?) temporary ban.. Are you waiting for a person to make death threats or what exactly is the treshold in these cases because it is the biggest vulnerability to this community at this point imo.

Also about this particular user, i am already keeping a log of his behavior on this and DW site and can already show that this is about all this guy does and you are enabling the destruction of this community knowing that a high % of his posts will be flagged as derogatory & abusive and will certainly be against TOS.

I will require someone to look on this eventually and when i think we can maybe have you all removed as moderators on that account. Here a teaser; https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=35643

I don't know what's wrong with you moderators... but something is off horribly.

I think your judgement is corrupted or flawed here somehow. The community can grow very well without any single 1 person but it can't grow as well as it could have if your shitty judgement & hesitance to enforce site rules turn this into a place where people are effectively routinely harrassed with moderator's blessing.

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  • To help me understand, what was the immediate/recent cause of this post? I thought it might have been the answers to this question of yours, but that was posted 40 minutes after this.
    – ChrisW Mod
    Jun 26 at 6:40
  • Incidentally the link to the avatar in your user profile is broken -- graph.facebook.com/10154029109160845/picture?type=large -- maybe you can see it but I get this reply -- { "error": { "message": "An access token is required to request this resource.", "type": "OAuthException", "code": 104, "fbtrace_id": "A-bNlerUNFv46FkuAYGTivB" } } -- so might want to use a picture that's hosted somewhere else.
    – ChrisW Mod
    Jun 26 at 12:08
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    As to what prompted. I thought it would be appropriate to occasionally draw attention to this issue and to be involved in the development of the community. I think that if the site is well regulated it will be more suitable for the kind of people we want
    – user8527
    Jun 29 at 10:23
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I'm not sure about your "already keeping a log of his behavior" -- that might not help at all.

On SE all a user's flagged posts, and all their suspensions, are recorded -- and that record is visible to moderators, as well as to SE staff if or when they want to look.

It doesn't surprise me if people are turned off from participation on that account. I do think it is important to shut out users who only post garbage or close to it.

I agree, with being concerned about users' (and new users', and regular users') perceptions of the site -- and whether they're "turned off from participation on that account".

I'm not sure the premise is accurate -- i.e. "only post garbage or close to it" -- though it may be that (garbage) is what you find memorable or leaves a strong impression.

It also worries me that even a single user, and especially if they're established and prolific, might have an out-sized effect on how other users view the site.

this is about all this guy does and you are enabling the destruction of this community knowing that a high % of his posts will be flagged as derogatory & abusive and will certainly be against TOS

If the user in question is one of the site's "highest-reputation" users, that's some objective evidence (by SE metrics) that they're not only prolific but also often helpful or useful -- welcome.

Are you waiting for a person to make death threats or what exactly is the treshold in these cases because it is the biggest vulnerability to this community at this point imo.

"What exactly is the threshold" is a subject or topic of these scenarios for what that's worth.

I think your judgement is corrupted or flawed here somehow.

Yes.

More than one moderator is reluctant to perma-ban the user or delete their account, though I believe I see at least some of the arguments on both sides (for and against).

  • Moderators agree that, at a minimum, posts may be edited or deleted -- and as you know, you can (if you're willing) help us do that more thoroughly or more quickly, by "flagging" posts for moderators' attention.
  • We also sometimes suspend a user's account -- though on this site there appears to be no hard rule about when, how often, or for how long.
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  • I'm not sure about your "already keeping a log of his behavior". It is more of a figure of speech and taking note for future reference in order to make a convincing case.
    – user8527
    Jun 21 at 13:55
  • when are next moderator elections?
    – user8527
    Jun 21 at 13:55
  • Not soon, is my guess: there weren't many candidates for the recent attempt at an election.
    – ChrisW Mod
    Jun 21 at 15:21
  • Howcome one moderator isn't enough to suspend a person? Is this standard policy for the network? I thought any mod could do it at any time and it is up to the user to appeal the ban which i think is appropriate placing for the burden of proof.
    – user8527
    Jun 21 at 16:51
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    "How come one moderator...?" The software would let any one moderator do that. I think moderators should work together though, agree with each other's actions, I might ask the other moderators what they think before I take action. "Is this standard...?" I'm not a moderator of other sites. I think it's normal (with some exceptions where a moderator acts unilaterally where other moderators disagree). Each site has a private chat room for its moderators. "It is up to the user to appeal the ban..." My guess is that site's moderators decisions are final: that in theory they can be appealed...
    – ChrisW Mod
    Jun 22 at 4:06
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    ... and that in practice SE doesn't have time to investigate the claims of every disgruntled user, and in my opinion is unlikely to reverse the decisions of site moderators (I think there would be some policy in place for a quorum of moderators to complain about another moderator). Basically it's the other moderators, not SE, who are a line-of-defence against a moderator's abuse-of-power (your post on Meta for example is seen by all site moderators) -- and the site's high-reputation users, who can see (therefore discuss) deleted posts and edit history.
    – ChrisW Mod
    Jun 22 at 4:20
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If the user in question is one of the site's "highest-reputation" users, that's some objective evidence (by SE metrics) that they're not only prolific but also often helpful or useful -- welcome.

I think the main guiding principle here should be long term thinking. This community is bigger than any one person, as i said in general but i will now speak specifically about our friend.

Afaik he is in late middle stage of his life. Therefore;

  • I give him 30 more years for lifespan.
  • of these he will be active here 4/5 due to his persistence. 24 years of participation.
  • of these 1/5 he will be straight banned. 20 years of participation.
  • of these 20 years of participation, 1/5 will be offensive posts that will require deletion. We are left with 16 years of acceptable participation.
  • of these 20 years of participation, another 1/5 will be flagged or heavily downvote even tho found to be within TOS on that occasion. We are left with 12 years of content that is just 'not heavily downvoted'.
  • of these 12 years of not utter garbage about 1/3 or 1/4 will have a net positive score.

We are left with 3-4 years of mediocre content at best!

This user's expected contribution is miniscule and in no way worth the cost of dealing with an annoying person for 30 years, having a built in deterent against experts and have this scarecrow build reputation that can make this site and the moderators look bad for another 1000 years.

If you know him then it is obvious that he goes after knowledgeable people or more so active users in general. However he is mostly focused on the top posters and there are theories in the community about why this is.

I have moderators on DW tell me that there is also no consensus on banning him but some think he goes after knowledgeable users because they can challenge and make him look bad. I think the reason as to his motivation doesn't really matter and it's all bad no matter how we look at it.

People should really give thought to the organization of Internet Buddhist community. It is to me obviously not healthy and will eventually have to change.

This is a far cry from a close call and is something that should be nipped in the bud asap.

I also suspect that there is more to this outlier specimen and people who protect him here & elsewhere from being banned.

Buddhist internet communities are now fairly evolved as to amount of knowledge that is content. It is very important that content is well organized for future reference and our era's knowledge documented as best as possible.

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  • compare 3-4 years of washed up content to deterring only 1 knowledgeable let alone expert that is in his 30s or 40s. you are trading 3-4 years of mediocre at best for 30-40 years of good to amazing.
    – user8527
    Jun 21 at 14:01
  • i will probably milk this to the extent of quitting eventually. It is not a threat but i doubt i will bother if i have alternatives or am a monk. If i ordain i wouldn't participate with him around for sure. It is bad because i lose out on having a community and the community loses on having me. I never been banned and many posts have net positive rating.
    – user8527
    Jun 21 at 14:03
  • I would go to SC but there is a person analogue to him there and it is also Sujato's own place and i let him do his thing there like i let Yuttadhammo on his site.
    – user8527
    Jun 21 at 14:07
  • This feels like the only communally moderated gathering and it would be a shame if was easily subverted. If it looks subverted and talks subverted then it is probably subverted y'know and no growth can be expected.
    – user8527
    Jun 21 at 14:10

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